June 12, 2007

June 12, 2007
Tues June 12
Filed under: Uncategorized — jtuffy @ 7:44 am
Well it was a pretty sorry day for blogging yesterday, i was mucho busy, but i’ll be better today, we are in the middle of budget season and i got dumped on with the other guy leaving.

38 Comments »
seth only one of the people at the hearing is a friend. the other is scum. I have been thinking about this since you told me of the situation. I am very bothered by the thought of compassion for the molester. If your best friend had been robbing and murdering people for years, and you found out, would you not think he deserved to die. He has also been lying to your face for who knows how long. But what is most bothersome, Is the only person who should be recieving any thoughts or compassion is the 6 year old girl. It is a waste of energy,time, and money to attempt to rehabilitate him. If he does not go to prison for life, he will molest many more little girls. Thats just the sad truth of it. Seth I hope you understand this is a sensitive subject for everybody. I hope you don’t take this in the wrong way. But child molesters are the most pathetic people on earth. they don’t deserve to live. again seth please try not to be offended by this.

Comment by Spencer — June 12, 2007 @ 10:54 am

Seth - So what were the first court proceedings? Are you going to have to testify in any way? And, i would really like to know about the conversation you had with his folks, what was that like? I bet that was frustrating, did you go over it in you mind a hundred times on what to say? How did you “break” the news? What was their reaction.

Comment by jtuffy — June 12, 2007 @ 11:03 am

The first court date was just to determine when the preliminary hearing will be. With a felony, there is a preliminary hearing at the county level to review the evidence and then he will go to district court where he will plead guilty or not, followed by the actual trial and sentancing.

Telling his parents was very difficult. I really didn’t know what to say (no-one has known what to say since they found out) so I just called them and told them. I will allways remember his Mother’s sobs. This guy was their baby! And he is one of the most compasionate and loving individuals I have ever met… this was just a complete shock, especialy to his parents. I sat with them yesterday in court… and spoke with them at length. They feel that their son needs to pay for what he did and they are emensly concerned about the victim.

And Spencer, the Lord is just as concerned about the repentance of one of his children as he is about the well-being of another. What he did was monstrous, but he is not a monster. The scourge of the last days is that Satan has such power that he can get good men to comit unthinkable sins. I had trouble with this idea… but after talking with my Bishop I realized that my feelings were out of sync with the Lord’s views and the Church’s policies. Repentance is available to this man… and part of repentance is being made whole or rehabilitation.

For you to say that he can not be rehabilitated is to limit the power of the attonement. No matter how you feel, he can still repent. So, the only one that doesn’t have full access to the attonement because of your thoughts is you. Any misconseption of the power of Christ and his attonement can become damning. In the end… the only one that will be condemned by your anger is you.

I hope that you are not offended by this.

Comment by Seth — June 12, 2007 @ 11:46 am

I do believe repentance is possible for this. But statistically it won’t happen. Because statistically he will molest again and again, society should lock him up for life. Society should castrate him. God will give him a second chance, but society should not. His punishment on earth should be death or life in prison. Me, you, the parent, or the little girl forgiving him or releasing our anger does not mean giving him a hug, a slap on the rist, and counceling. It is our responsibility to protect the other little girls whom he would most likely molest. The worst thing the parents could ever do to that child is make her see him again, or to even express compassion for him to her. That happens all the time. especially when it is a relative or close friend. they invite him back over taking no thought for how this effects the child. They are allready screwed for life, and that just seals the deal. It is God’s responsibility to judge whether they utilize the atonement, not yours. It is your responsibility to serve justice to the molester.

Comment by Sweet Moses — June 12, 2007 @ 12:08 pm

speaking of being judged. people who enable this molester to molest additional girls in the future I am sure will recieve harsh judgments for that.

Comment by Sweet Moses — June 12, 2007 @ 12:10 pm

so everyone thinks your friend is already guilty? is the evidence that strong or is he pleading guilty?

Comment by The Scam — June 12, 2007 @ 2:37 pm

i posted a comment but it hasn’t shown up. here it is:

it seems everyone believes your friend is guilty. did he plead guilty or is the evidence just too strong?

Comment by The Scam — June 12, 2007 @ 2:45 pm

Nice double comment Scam.

I think seth and spence both had very good points. I was really agreeing with Seth’s point about the Atonement and forgiveness, then I read smengler’s note, and i think that was right on target. And we do have a responsibility to protect our women, children and others. If these means punishment and loss of priveliges, then so be it.

And yes, also think there needs to be a good balance, because which is worse, people condeming the sinner or people tolerating the sin?

Comment by jtuffy — June 12, 2007 @ 2:50 pm

last comment is very true tuffy. Yes cameron we are basing our comments on a belief that is is true. don’t try to come in with any of this law school innocent till proven guilty BS. If you’re accused of something you should be punished. Thats how they did it in the old days. There is only some sarcasm in that.

Comment by Sweet Moses — June 12, 2007 @ 2:56 pm

I can’t wait until you get slammed with some crap Joe Schmoe down the block did and you end up taking the fall. Innocent until proven guilty is one of the most innovative concepts of all time. “If you’re accused of something you should be punished.” Explain to me the logic. Sounds like a witch hunt waiting to happen.

Forgiving does not mean being naive and allowing the person to continue committing the sin. You can forgive the person but still expect them to be punished and lose certain privileges. it would be stupid not to. but forgiving is a seperate issue from punishment.

Comment by The Scam — June 12, 2007 @ 3:10 pm

Seth told me about the blog, so I figured I’d chip in. 3rd Nephi 14:3 - Read it.

Spencer, I have to honestly say I felt very much as you did. Even after my sister was raped, I still felt that way. Then when this happened, it got me thinking again. My sister does not hate the man who did this. She feels sorrow for what he did and hates the crime but does not hate the man. but I did. I wanted to find him and hurt him, more than anything. Now I think of all involved and remember that God will forgive whom he will forgive but of us it is required to forgive all men.

Comment by Tom — June 12, 2007 @ 3:26 pm

Very true comments Tom, but the cycle has to end someone, what if Spence went out and put the that molestor in a comma? We would have to forgive him. I don’t think we should call people victims of satan, that is an excuse to steal bread or become an illegal immigrant, right scam?

Comment by jtuffy — June 12, 2007 @ 3:30 pm

Oh man, religion has you guys all screwed up - all except for spence maybe. I cannot express the anger I feel when someone says they don’t HATE the person that raped them or molested their child or even something worse. You think there is a God that will condemn you if you don’t forgive, but can still deny them of glory himself. That concept is too twisted for a logical mind. Anyone that rapes or molests a child should be killed. Spence is right, they will do it again. Forget about forgiving this person. Think about it, according to your logic, you can be the victim in two ways when somone else chooses to molest your child: 1) You’re a victim b/c your child has been molested, and 2) you’re a victim b/c now you may be punished for not “forgiving” this loser. You didn’t do anything, but now you may be punished for what HE did to YOUR child! You’d be better off thinking for yourself rather what religion is telling you to do because this is ludicrous.

Now, as you all say, I hope you’re not offended by this.

Comment by DOMS 287 — June 12, 2007 @ 4:11 pm

you guys are completely confusing forgiveness with punishment. the guy needs to be punished, he needs to suffer for what he did, he needs to pay for his crimes. but what good is it going to do for you to sit there and festor over it. in reality, you come out on the losing end. just because you forgive someone doesn’t mean you let them off the hook for what they did. mercy cannot rob justice. it’s the law.

nice to see you back, Tom. you must have a thick skin. thanks for not hating us.

Comment by The Scam — June 12, 2007 @ 4:28 pm

Yes, he needs to be severly punished! But he won’t be, because of our crackpot judicial system over-run with greedy law-folk! (No offense scam but it’s true) He’ll probably just get his mug on some sex-offender website and won’t be able to go to the park, That is no justice, that is why he needs to have vice-grips attached to every pubic hair and small weiner till it falls off!

Comment by jtuffy — June 12, 2007 @ 4:32 pm

Yes, a good punishment suggestion there tuffy. What I’m saying though is NO forgiveness. I’ll tell you what good it does to fester over it. It teaches the little girl or boy victim that these people are very, very, very wrong and they should know it was not their fault (the child’s) and they should hate these types of poeple. Don’t you know where these children usually end up? They gravitate towards those types of people as they get older. A lot of them do porn. These children get really messed up. And then, you have to worry about them doing it to other children when they get older ESPECIALLY when you teach them very young that we should forgive these pathetic low-lifes!

Comment by DOMS 287 — June 12, 2007 @ 4:50 pm

Even though he is a good friend of mine, I agree there needs to be punishment. However, if there was no chance of rehabilitation then why does the law still allow for it? In fact, some states are pushing for the death penalty in certain cases (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,280413,00.html). Look at the comment here by one of the victims. They bring up a good point we should consider. As to the “statistics” that he will go out and molest again, how do you know this?

And as to how the child will grow up, again, how do you know this? Because I know people who were sexually abused when they were young and now that they are adults they are still normal people leading normal lives.

Comment by Tom — June 12, 2007 @ 5:55 pm

I also know people that have suffered these things, forgiven (more or less), and are functioning adults. to forgive doesn’t mean you have to even like the people. it just means you don’t hate them. no good comes from hate.

you say that by hating these people we can show the kids that it’s not okay and that it wasn’t their fault and this will some how help the kid get over the experience. explain that to me step by step. how does hating a person help someone get over a situation? if anything, it causes them to continue thinking about it and dwelling on it. how can hating someone help you to move on and get over a situation? it doesn’t add up.

no way am i advocating letting the guy off easy. that’s not the solution. justice must be served. but what is hating the guy going to solve?

Comment by The Scam — June 12, 2007 @ 6:15 pm

for you haters - why don’t you way the benefits of forgiving versus hating the guy for the rest of your life.

for you religious folk - go back and read Pres. Faust’s talk from conference. The old man tells it how it is.

Comment by The Scam — June 12, 2007 @ 6:17 pm

Ok I have so many thoughts where to begin, this topic is one that always gets under my skin. I have seen/heard of too many instances where a child is molested and the parents find out about it and fail to act on it, and worse continue to bring the child around the molester. I cannot and will not ever understand this. Nor do I understand compassion and sympathy for someone who has molested a child. And I don’t care who they are if ANYONE, including Spencer ever laid a hand on Grace it is over,they are cut out of my life completely. There will all ready be feelings of blame that the child will feel toward the parent “why didn’t you protect me” that will only be made much much worse if the child feels that you side with the molester on any level. The priority of the parent is to insure that there is as little damage as possiable. That does not mean I do not forgive. Forgiveness in these kind of situations is not about the person you are forgiving but about you personally letting go of the anger hurt and pain and finding peace. It does not mean that you have to see this person or talk to this person or have anything to do with them. Obviously the atonement is available for the molester, but the people supporting the child and helping her should never be the same people helping the molester. The child would only see this as the parents, friends and other family excepting the behavior of the molester. Tom, you say you know people who grew up and lead normal lives, that is the exception not the rule and sadly is not the rule because people refuse to punish the abusers and seek help for the children. And when you say normal what do you mean many people can appear to lead highly functioning lives but be dead on the inside.

The fact is that children who are sexually abused are at a much higher risk to become sexually active at a young age, seeking older boyfriends and abusive relationships, they are at a higher risk to abuse drugs to become depressed, to struggle in there adult relationships, they are at a greater risk of becoming a victim of rape, they grow up with feelings of guilt and shame. The list goes on and on. 95% of prostitutes were sexually abused, the majority of women in the jails were sexually abused. 1 in 4-5 girls will be sexually abused this could all change if people would stop feeling compassion and sympathy for the molesters and punish them and stop making excuses.

Comment by Mrs Sweet Moses — June 12, 2007 @ 6:31 pm

Hate brings a better chance of staying safe in the future. In my crazier days I met many girls that were molested by their fathers and other male figures. It was then that I would get puzzled as to why I had previously heard so many GOOD things about those very people! They would explain to me that they still love them despite their mistakes. The more I would say that those guys were wrong for what they did, the more they would take up for them. Turns out these girls were not religious, had no morals when it came to sex, were taking drugs, and had long histories of bad guys for boyfriends. What would have been different had they been taught to hate those types of people? I’m willing to bet much would be different. If you feel compassionate or sorry or love for these people, you will fuel them. They should not feel any tolerance. Plus, if you sit there and dwell on trying to feel “okay” about this guy, what are you going to say when they ask YOU what you want the punishment to be (put yourself in that situation)? If by that time you had decided, “Hey, this guys is wrong, but I just don’t hate him.” then you may have compassion to follow and then a lesser punishment in mind. Avoiding the hate just allows these guys to do it again. As for the statistics, we all know MOST of these guys do it again. If you think they are cured, then you are watching the wrong Disney channel. These guys will tell you themselves that they have to accept the fact that they are going to have to fight this urge for the rest of their lives. And, what makes YOU think these people you know that were molested are okay? I’m sure you thought your friend was perfectly fine too … Surprise! He had some extremely dangerous things going on in his head. Gee wiz, turns out you can’t be so sure even about your best friends. You have no idea what really goes on is someone’s head - what they think about, what troubles them behind closed doors. Don’t use the argument that you know people that are “normal”. You don’t know anything about that. This is why we are all in danger when people like you are in charge of things. How many people say the same things about prisoners that get out and do it again? Too many times. I get really pissed off at people that defend people like this. Do you realize that there is NO EXCUSE for that? It’s not the same as getting so mad that you throw something and break it. It is something you KNOW through and through is wrong, then you decide to do it, and you cover your tracks as you go by telling the child why they shouldn’t tell other people. The ONLY time these guys are sorry is when they get caught. So “forgive” them for feeling sorry that they are losing everything now. They would do it as long as they could get away with it and you are ready to take up for them. You should be locked up too. You are just putting other people in danger. I’m telling you, Tom, THERE IS NO CHANCE OF REHABILITATION. Best possible case, there should BE NO chance of rehab. They should NEVER GET a second chance. Their actions were too methodical. They knew it was wrong, and they did it anyway. Get over it, your friend is a loser and should be killed today. Well, tortured for 10 years, then killed.

Comment by DOMS 287 — June 12, 2007 @ 6:58 pm

Mathew 8:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

If you want to talk scripture, then that is what Jesus thought of people that harmed children.

I agreed 100% with Mrs. Sweet Moses, the victim should never have to see, hear, or ever be reminded of the autrosity and of the individual. Child services should take that child away if the parents ever even show once ounce of sympathy towards the molestor.

It makes me sick to think of the PC sympathetic world we live in nowadays, i think we all know what would happen to these types of people 100, 200 1000 years ago. Just because the punishment doesn’t fit the crime (because of nutcase laywers) doesn’t mean we can’t wish the punishment upon the offender.

And Doms made an excellent point. The guilty are only remorseful when the get caught! That is sickening to think that if he wasn’t apprehended, he would’ve done it again!!!!!

Comment by jtuffy — June 12, 2007 @ 7:22 pm

First off… Michael, the fact that your logic cannot understand our religion gives me comfort. Jesus was esteemed as a fool by the learned, so were his prophets… so thanks for the complement.

Okay… a few details. This friend is accused for one incident of child molestation. He has confessed to the police and his confession basicaly confirms that there was only one incident (don’t ask for details on this… just trust me.) The maximum sentance for this crime is 15 years in a state penatentury and registration as a sex offender. He will most likely be in for around 10 years. NO ONE THINKS HE SHOULD NOT SERVE HARD TIME! The point that has been brought up is the difference between forgiveness and punishment. I know he needs to be punished and that we need to protect other potential victims. But, I also know if he is going to come out of his punishment having learned something and repented, he will need some help.

This is not just my stance. We have a form of perfect government to learn from here on earth, it is the Priesthood and church government. This is what will happen from the church’s perspective. He will have a disciplinary council. These councils are not to punish, but to help the individual make the changes necasary to return to full fellowship. He will receive continued support from ecclesiaticle leaders throughout his jail time, trial and sentance. He will be able to participate in special church services. And when he is released his church records will be anotated to let leadership know what he has done and make sure he is not called to work with children or young adults. He will be forever effected by this sin, and he will recieve punishment but he can still return to full fellowship in the Church.

Comment by Seth — June 12, 2007 @ 7:31 pm

Obviously he was already in your “form of perfect government to learn from here on earth”. Guess you didn’t realize it didn’t work the first time. Oh gee, but the second time should work!! Logic, people, logic.

Comment by DOMS 287 — June 12, 2007 @ 7:41 pm

what happened to your two month break DOMS! lol

Comment by Seth — June 12, 2007 @ 7:53 pm

Seth, yes of course he should receive help just not from people who are also supporting the child those two groups have to be made up of completely different people.

Comment by Mrs Sweet Moses — June 12, 2007 @ 7:58 pm

Well how bout this, don’t you think if he was really repentent and wanted to be forgiven he would say how many times he did it and not confess to one “incident”

Also, it is probably a good thing i’m not a cop, if i were, it would be rodney king everyday

Comment by jtuffy — June 12, 2007 @ 8:08 pm

wow too many comments to comment on. There were several good comments. Tom none of them were from you. It really appears some of you have more compassion on this molester than for the girl. Mrs sweet moses is very correct. If you associate with the girl you should not with the dirt bag. Tom why don’t you invite the guy over to baby sit your kid. You feel so confident he will repent, and never do it again. that is just silly. I can only hope not confident enough to let him babysit your kids when he’s out of jail. Do you think a murderer should be locked up for life? Of course, to insure that it doesn’t happen again. This is exactly the same. Like Cam explained , do not allow mercy to rob justice. Additionaly it is not our place to offer mercy in this case. also excellent points Jon and Doms, he is only remorseful now that he is caught. And think for a minute about that fact that if hadn’t been caught he would have been there trying to the molest the little girl this weekend. I don’t believe for a second it was a one time thing. Maybe he had only had one chance with girl. who knows how many other girls he has molested. Another reason to keep him locked up is to insure he doesn’t have kids some day. All that will do is continue the cycle. You just gotta stop hoping for his short stay in jail and supposive rehabilitation. this is just crazy. Michael, I understand your point, it is just wrong. there is a happy medium. you don’t have to hate the guy, just never think of him again. and for the love of all that is good don’t have compassion on him.

Comment by Sweet Moses — June 12, 2007 @ 9:50 pm

Oh and Jon, that is a very creative punishment. He should have to walk around naked with the vice grips till it falls off.

And another thing. this early in the process. Why has there been so much thought even about this guy. Talking about how soon he will get out. Talking about how he can go to church in prison, recieve counceling, be reinstated to the church, blah blah blah. It is way to soon to be hoping for all these “good things” to happen to this sicko. try thinking about the girl for a few minutes. Try forgetting about the dirtbag, and focussing on the little girl. If he only serves 10 years in prison all you can hope for is that another inmate serves justice to him.

Comment by Sweet Moses — June 12, 2007 @ 9:59 pm

yes, lets forget the sinner and talk about the real victim, That is what puzzled me the most seth, you never mentioned the girl, how is she?

Comment by jtuffy — June 12, 2007 @ 10:12 pm

You all make these ridiculous asumptions, with no idea what is really going on and you treat everyone like they are idiots. I’m sick of having words put in my mouth. Of course we are doing more for the girl and her family… and we do not mention the molester to the girl. The family is not retarded either… they will never see the molester again. You are all out of control.

Do you all really think that I am stupid? If you all think I’m as big an idiot as your comments suggest, just come out and say it. I’ld rather know now than continue friendships with people that have absolutely no respect for me or people I choose to associate with.

Comment by Seth — June 12, 2007 @ 10:40 pm

I agree we are making assumptions. They are in large part based on comments that were made though. If we are wrong all you have to do is tell us we are. I obviously would assume everyone is giving more attention to the girl, but there had been no talk of that, just talk of the molester. My natural assumption would be that people would not do any of these things, but some comments that were made, made me think otherwise. I have tried to refrain from use of sarcasm with the blogs on this topic and situation. I think because of habit, we have all made comments in an arguemenative way. its not a matter of not respecting you or anybody else. Its simply an issue of being sickened and angered by the situation, and expressing that other feelings or beliefs about the issue. Alot of comments that have been made were general comments not specific to this exact situation.

Comment by Sweet Moses — June 12, 2007 @ 11:02 pm

I hope so… because I came to you all for help and was met with ridicule during a personal crisis! I am more mad than any of you because it is not only monstrous what he has done, it was done to the family of one of my best friends AND it was a personal betrayal of the trust I had placed in my friend. I spent more time with this guy than anyone besides Rachel and Benj. Everything I do reminds me of him and inevitably, what he did! I have to forgive him, because without the attonement in my life to purge that anger… I would be consumed by it. Without the atonement to purge that anger and hurt and lose I feel every moment, I would not be able to move forward and live life. And, as I have prayed to be able to forgive this individual… I have realized that true forgiveness is not possible without my concern for his repentance and eternal wellbeing. So… I am working toward forgiveness as I have been prompted and counceled by my priesthood leaders.

I was hoping for a little support through this horrible process… not to defend myself. But the blog and your coments have just made it worse and made me feel even more isolated and alone.

Comment by Seth — June 12, 2007 @ 11:17 pm

Sorry!!!!! I am sure this is why you were hesitant to bring up the situation. this topic just ignites such anger.

Comment by Frodo Baggins — June 12, 2007 @ 11:55 pm

Yeah, Seth, I agree with with Frodo’s last post — this topic is sensitive, but not meant to hurt you. I actually didn’t even know what was going on. I didn’t know you were struggling with this. All I knew was what I was gathering from everyone else’s comments. I didn’t/don’t know the details. As Sweet Moses said, a lot of the comments were not specific to this situation. All in all, if you need support, I’m sure we’re all here for that. So as much as I’d like to be more specific, I still don’t know the details. I just don’t want ANY child molester to get ANY sympathy from ANY one for ANY reason at ANY time.

Comment by DOMS 287 — June 13, 2007 @ 12:43 am

Seth - I apologize for all the outbursts, many of us feel differently on the topic and i personally, and I’m sure the others as well, did not mean to make it seem like a personal attack on yourself. We all have no idea what you are going through and wish you the best with your struggles. If you need support this is the place, just not the place for support under debate.

Comment by jtuffy — June 13, 2007 @ 7:46 am

seth,

i echo the apologies. i can’t even imagine what you must be going through. i believe you are doing the right thing by talking with your priesthood authorities and seeking counsel from them and from the Lord. I’m really sorry.

,cameron

Comment by The Scam — June 13, 2007 @ 9:42 am

On a completely different tangent, it was nice to see one of the ladies grace us with her presence. i hope to hear more from Mrs. Sweet Moses.

Comment by The Scam — June 13, 2007 @ 9:43 am