August 9, 2007

August 9, 2007
Thurs Aug 9th
Filed under: Uncategorized — jtuffy @ 7:40 am
Alright, there where quite a few comments so decided to start a new one. That was a doozey of a way to end the last blog, any further comments? (Go back and read jimmy hostilities comments)

37 Comments »
jimmy, i’m not dismissing the idea of positing thinking. i believe in it very much. the problem its there must be a foundation on which to base the positive thinking. sort of like faith is a belief in things that are not seen but are true. typically what you the positive thinking must be based on something positive.

i agree that many businesses make a ton of money on poor/crappy products. it doesn’t make it right. i suppose that if the consumer doesn’t care, and just bends over and takes it, then the seller will continue to sell.

in these MLM deals, the reality is that the people that buy into the company are just as much a consumer as the person they are selling the product to. they have been given a sales pitch about purchasing into the company. their responsability to sign people up and sell the product are the product which they have bought. if enough consumers complain and fail and the product they have bought does not produce, how can the original seller feel good about himself. that’s what they call a sheister. if only 2% of the products i sold worked, i would feel pretty crappy about it. positive thinking or not, if the product can’t inspire or even support positive thinking, something might need to be adjusted.

i completely believe in the power of dress. if you wear a red tie and blue suit, not only do you feel sharp, but you will act sharp. how you dress can affect your confidence level. but only if you let it. again, positive thinking. but as well, if they are only wearing a blue suit and red tie because someone told them to and they don’t understand why they need to dress a particular way, it defeats the purpose. the positive thinking has to come from them, not from the suit. you have to know how to use the weapon before it will fire.

you brought up an intersting point with the mission. i find it difficult to compare what i did on my mission to selling a product. i think it is debasing to the essence of the gospel and the idea of sharing with someone my feelings about it. as far as resolving people’s concerns, it was more trying to understand their situation and so that they could see how the gospel would help them. you can’t convince anyone that the gospel is the best thing for them. it doesn’t work that way.

sadly, many of the techniques from the mission are used in the business world. i think this is called priestcraft. or maybe close to it.

anyway, i agree with some of whaty mr. hostility said, but i still think MLM’s are a total scam and DOMS experience is pretty on par with how many of the suckers probably feel.

Comment by The Scam — August 9, 2007 @ 10:21 am

i just posted a huge comment and its not showing up. i hate when that happens. only time will tell.

Comment by The Scam — August 9, 2007 @ 10:28 am

I see the comment!

And yes MLM are a bunch of phoneys. I just can’t believe how many suckers buy into these types of things. And in the business world, if you don’t have a good product, you are not going to be in business very long. Sometimes the “product” is an idea, like the idea that it will make you a lot of money, which is what these people buy into.

DOMS knows all to well the MLM scams, heck, he’s tried every one of them

And I don’t think the mission was selling anything. I can see how you can make a very loose comparison, but the basis of a product versus the gospel cannot really be connected without demeaning the purpose.

Comment by jtuffy — August 9, 2007 @ 10:35 am

Tuffy, you told me what your sales process was for manipulating people to buy your product on the mission.

It was a very crafty sales pitch that that made it easy to say yes. the percentage of people who succeed with mlm’s is probably similar to the % of people baptized who stay active in south america. Maybe 10 outa the 500 are active. Cameron you said you would feel pretty crapy if your product only worked 2 % of the time. Yes you were sharing your feelings with people and helping them feel the spirit, and then just at that right time, asking crafty questions that are impossible to say no to. In america people weren’t as easily manipulated by the white man in fancy clothes sitting on their dirt floors. thats why I had about a 30% success rate not 2%. I tell you what, if i had known then what I know now, i could have converted mass amounts of people.

Of course there are some scams out there. And I am not saying michael or anyone should do an mlm. Or that he should have succeeded at it. I don’t know about the specific ones he did, but I would bet the oportunity was there.

My real point with my response, was you shouldn’t disrespect their sales techniques. They are good techniques. You should learn how to use them.

Especially you michael. you will be trying to sell a product nobody wants. If you don’t employ some good sales techniques nobody will buy it.

Same with you Seth. you are going to need to tell people your pots are made of gold to get them to pay that much for them.

Tuffy i got a challenge for you. Employ “The Secret” to get the senior anylist position. think it, believe it, say it, tell your wife you will get it, you have to fully believe in your mind that it will be yours. Never let thoughts of not getting it in.

oh and one other point. you guys mention these idiots who quit the mlms to go back to their “jobs”. Atleast they got back up and went to their “jobs”. I don’t understand why you guys are judging these people so harshly for simply trying to create a better life for themselves.

funny stuff

Comment by Jimmy Hostility — August 9, 2007 @ 11:11 am

i’m not judging them. i can totally see how they are trying to better their lives. i just wish they would focus that energy into something a little more proven to give a good return.

suspence, can you burn me a copy of the “secret” from your ipod. i’ll send you the blank cds if you want. i’m really interested. i’m not dismissing its effectiveness. maybe just its effectiveness in MLMs.

you talk about sales techniques. is there a difference between sales techniques and sales trickery? there is a difference between selling a good product and pulling the wool over someone’s eyes to get them to buy a crappy product.

i echo tuffy, if you’re selling a crappy product, you won’t be in business long.

anyone know the life span of a typical MLM? look at the ones that have been around a while (am-way, noni, melaluca), obviously there is something to the product (both the actual product and the MLM aspect of the business) otherwise they would self destruct. what do you guys think?

Comment by The Scam — August 9, 2007 @ 11:42 am

I just think it is funny how Spencer made, basicaly, alot of the same points we did yesterday. Way to rephrase Jimmy.

As far as MLMs go… this one actualy made sense. You are basicaly helping create a market for a legitimate product and getting paid for it. I went out of respect for my friend, not to get anything free. I hope he can acomplish his dreams through TEAM.

The thing I take issue with is being called lazy and pesamistic! IT’s funny how you can change one word in your argument and then affectively change the whole thing. “of course [college] won’t work for you with that attitude.” Hmm…lets talk about positive attitudes.

I want to help young people learn that they can accomplish the things they dream about, just like my instructors and teachers have helped me. If the world needs anything… it’s someone teaching our kids to be positive, self-respecting, and hard working because most of em aren’t getting it at home or from their entertainment. The way I have choosen to do this is through education. And, education kind of requires a degree. I have been sticking out my university studies through a serious bout with depresion, even though 75% of the people in the schools administration and faculty have told me my depression is so bad that I should give up or that I just would not be able to make it. But where is giving up gonna get me? Any closer to what I want? Not only do I think I can make it through a bachelors program… I think I can make it through a masters program. And I’m gonna get a job at a university someday and just chuckle to myself about how the system said I wouldn’t make it.

I wanted a home for my family, but I couldn’t afford to buy them one. So I am building them one! That sounds pretty lazy and negative.

And look at Cameron, Jon and Michael… no one in their right mind is gonna call these guys lazy. We all have our less than impressive moments… but everyone here is working very hard for what they want. Just because we may want different things than Jimmy doesn’t devalue the things we find important or the work we are putting into them.

Comment by Seth — August 9, 2007 @ 11:42 am

Wow… missed a few posts while I was typing away. So… Is it funny to anyone else that Jimmy has free reign to judge and mock anyone he wants… but when we poke a little fun at something or someone we get jumped.

And… is it raining in Utah? Tee time get canceled? I’m just trying to figure out this unusual day time blogging. Don’t get me wrong… it’s good to see ya!

Comment by Seth — August 9, 2007 @ 11:48 am

i appreciate sloth’s comments. i think we all work hard for the things we value. people approach problems in different ways. valid points, seth.

i also am glad that everyone is jumping on the blog again. i enjoy the banter, friendly or contested.

Comment by The Scam — August 9, 2007 @ 11:55 am

First off, The Secret can’t work because no one would be able to follow the basic principles. All human beings entertain feelings of doubt and failure at some point, questions are always raised. If everyone always had a positive attitude then they would never know the negative and everyone would be billionaires. The bottom line is that everyone always has negative thoughts so the basis has to be dismissed.

Second point. The mission was not a salepitch and it pains me to see it being compared to such. Maybe you didn’t truly have the mission experience or are yet to be fully converted! LOL.

I would love to get into the remodel business or the home construction business, i’m telling you, 2009 is my year baby, just have to get enough capital going.

Comment by jtuffy — August 9, 2007 @ 2:37 pm

Yes, we need more banter, heck i’d even let Doms try to “sell” us on his nutritional MLM’s right now if it would bring back the fiery blogs!

Comment by jtuffy — August 9, 2007 @ 2:39 pm

Dude, tuffy, i’m telling you - a little side project remodeling lease homes in bartlesville. huge money waiting to happen. mr. hostility, are you listening. this is a jackpot, but we need someone on the outside to start making the deals.

okay, if you had to join an MLM, what would it take to seal the deal for you? i mean as far as guarantees and returns and quality of product. or would you just stay away from the whole deal altogether? this is for everyone.

Comment by The Scam — August 9, 2007 @ 2:46 pm

Tuffy, your little poking at me in post #3 where you say I’ve tried every one of the mlms is wrong. That is unless you believe that by trying one you’ve tried them all. In that case, I concur. Dork.

When looking at the people involved in theses mlms and trying to get other people to sign up, you can look at them through either of two perspectives. One perspective makes you mad that they are coning other people and truly messing their lives up at times. The other perspective makes you feel sorry for them. You feel bad seeing them mixed up in all of this. You’re kind of like, you poor poor soul… What’s the point to all of this? I’m not sure, but I think it’s that the system is jacked. It does more harm than good. About the products these people sell, I’m not sure how good a product can possibly be sometimes when they market through these means. No matter how good the product, it will instantly get a bad rap from most people, and for good reason. When someone chooses to save money on advertising, and con people to sell and distribute their product, you must question their own confidence in their product, or at least their true motives for selling the product, which will again shed light on the quality of the product!

Looks like Brooke and I are moving to PA. Or at least for the weekend to see tuffy and his other half. Should be interesting. And costly.

Comment by DOMS 287 — August 9, 2007 @ 2:54 pm

Here’s my take on scam’s group question: If I found a product that I just thought was the $#!+, but then found out it was in one of those mlms and I could sell it myself, I would just take the product and not get involved, but I would instantly feel like the product isn’t as good as I thought — it can’t be, I would think. I would feel so ashamed when people ask me about the product and I have to tell them it is through one of those mlms. I’m speaking hypothetically, but I actually live this everyday as it is. IT’S SO HARD TO TALK ABOUT!!!!

Comment by DOMS 287 — August 9, 2007 @ 3:04 pm

Don’t worry doms, it will be well worth it. And if you make it here before 10, i might just make good on the offer of $1 a minute under 10 o’clock. Doubt that will happen though. LOL.

I would get involved in a pimping ring. That is an MLM. You just don’t want to be on the bottom level if you know what I mean! ROFLOL.

Well, Scam, lets buy a duplex in B-ville, you and kress leave in one half and we rent the other out!

Comment by jtuffy — August 9, 2007 @ 3:12 pm

I would (and probably will) get involved in Melaleuca. It is a little different though, because it is totaly product oriented. They encourage their members not to sale the idea of the buisness, but to just show people how good the products are. Then, latter on, if the people want to begin to build their buisness they can. And, their products are really good. I have used many… if not all of them and have had a hard time going back to conventional products. The latest is the protien powder… theirs is so great that I am now pretty much disgusted by all other protien powder on the market. I used theirs for a while then tried to go back to my previous brand and could (and can) barely gag it down. It is so easy to talk up their products and I could talk about them for hours, because I really like them.

The other thing that I find comforting… the people who run Melaleuca are running a legitimate buisness. They are focused on manufacturing and distributing the best products they can and they are not part of the direct sales aspect. They make more money if the product does well… not if they sign a thousand people up (even though they need people to sign up to buy the product… kinda a paradox.) I have met the CEO and many of the high level executives and they are so different than any of the MLM guys I have ever met.

And, when I do the Melaleuca thing… it will really be more for the products than for the buisness. I would love to enrole a few other people… to pay for my products, but I can’t really see myself pushing it too far. Though, if you reach a certain point you get money to buy a car… because they want their high level sales guys to look profesional and succesful. Having someone else pay for a new car would be nice.

Comment by Seth — August 9, 2007 @ 4:45 pm

that’s a snappy idea. i’ll start checking around.

i’d pimp a pimping ring. that’s a great idea too.

i don’t think there is a MLM scam that i would do, because ultimately its not the product your selling, its however the MLM is set up that you are really selling. the product is just the backdrop. it doesn’t really matter. i don’t think i would ever be comfortable with that.

Comment by The Scam — August 9, 2007 @ 4:47 pm

you guys are a hoot. I didn’t question anybody’s lazyness. Just brought some excitement. I knew i would get you razzed up with the mission stuff. ROFLOLWMPIMH. No one in their right mind would do an mlm. There are plenty of other ways to make money. Realestate is a good way if you are patient. I was in a hurry and it didn’t work out. Well I guees i made about $20k on it, but i spent all that on the viper. Dang that sucks. Anyways. Lets do the realestate deal in 2009. or ealier.

Doms you should establish a health product or workout routine and start an mlm to push it. We could all wear red ties and be your top level guys. That would be a good time.

Comment by mlm'r — August 9, 2007 @ 8:11 pm

tuffy guess what i just realized. BYU is playing Boston College in boston that same weekend. So we can go to that game too. The game is saturday at noon. I’ll have to decide whether to wear red or blue. LOL

Comment by Jimmy Hostility — August 10, 2007 @ 1:07 am

Well tuffy, you’re going to want to kill me. That’s why I’m putting this on the blog - for witnesses. The only communication we may have over this matter will take place here. Brooke was asked to take a lady’s shift at work this weekend since her kid broke his or her leg or something. Regardless of why, she has taken the shift. It’s for the better anyway since she hasn’t worked as much due to our trip to Tulsa. As if I need to say it, we can’t make it to PA this weekend after all. We are both very disappointed and sorry. We appreciate your understanding.

Comment by DOMS 287 — August 10, 2007 @ 6:33 am

She probably wouldn’t need to take on all the extra shifts if you had a JOB!!!!! LOL. I think that is the witness you just gave everybody. Ok, you are going to miss out on some funny times. I had free tickets to the Eagles preseason game, and we rented a boat for Monday that has a parasail with it. It’s going to be sweetness. You’re missing out big time.

Comment by jtuffy — August 10, 2007 @ 7:55 am

how do you send her off to work everyday while you sit there whacking off. I just can’t rap my head around the idea of that. Don’t you get bored? How do you just do nothing for weeks and weeks and weeks. do you spend 4 or 5 hours in the gym so you feel like you did something that day. I am just so confused by this.

Comment by Jimmy Hostility — August 10, 2007 @ 9:41 am

are you not going to school anymore, DOMS? what’s the next step in your master plan?

nice job, suspence. i was fooled. not that i really thought you bought into the MLM thing, but you had me going with your conviction.

i’m telling you guys, the real estate thing in bartlesville is going to bust open. we can make it happen. i just need to get some actual money flowing.

kressyda has put a stop to my internet plans. she’s worried we can’t afford it. i’ll bide my time and strike in a little bit.

tuffy, how did you score eagles tickets. that’s crazy. the pga championship is here in tulsa. i could have gotten sweet vip tickets any day that i wanted, but my stupid work schedule is super busy and kressyda and i are doing our anniversary stuff this weekend so i could not partake of the PGA goodness.

interesting tid bit of info. karen lovell and her husband, cameron, came down for the PGA and are staying at our place while we go to arkansas.

Comment by The Scam — August 10, 2007 @ 10:16 am

cameron. Get some balls. Get the freaking internet. $30 a month, are you kidding me. I don’t even comprehend how you don’t need it for school. this makes no sense. Everyday I am baffled by the decisions people make. absolutely mind boggling.

Comment by Jimmy Hostility — August 10, 2007 @ 10:34 am

I think i’m going to have to agree with Mr. Hostility on this one, being a law student and other I think the internet is first and foremost, even above cable tv. Don’t know what i would do with out it.

So how could you get into the PGA? I remember going with gramps years ago, pretty good times. But its seems pretty swealtering right now. Speaking of which, i think i’ll leave an hour early today and squeeze in 9 holes.

So how did Karen get in touch with you to stay at your place, that is random. Do you have your house out there as an LDS time share? LOL

Speaking of houses, Does anyone think we’ll ever actually do any types of buisness dealings with one another?

Comment by jtuffy — August 10, 2007 @ 10:40 am

We better go into buisness! I am sick of always talking about some mystic day in the future when we will go into buisness together. The real estate market is great right now… and, we could all use the money now… not when we are old farts. I personaly am ready to do it. I just need to finish my house and get the bachelors… both should be done by the begining of April.

I think that renovation and resale are the way to go. The market in SLC area is great. It would also be very simple to expand the buisness. Plus, we all know that the bathroom and the kitchen are 2 of the biggest selling points… well, you allready have a guy that can make custom, handmade tile and sinks. Plus, I have been itching for an excuse to get into custom carpentry, like cabinets and bookshelves and other instalation furniture… this would be the perfect excuse to get into that also.

There is also a great market for building new homes in this area, especially in the mountains between here and Jackson. And, even if we didn’t do this forever… it would be an awsome way to get start up capital for something else.

So… yes, let’s stop drooling about the future and make something happen.

Comment by Seth — August 10, 2007 @ 11:19 am

i love watching “flip this house” and “property ladder”. the best is when these total morons make really dumb decisions (along the lines of not getting the internet, i’m sure) and end up costing them all of their profit. i’m totally into buying, fixing up and selling. the key is: get in and get out fast. its just about finding the right market.

Comment by The Scam — August 10, 2007 @ 12:06 pm

Okay, did you see my post at, what was it, let’s see… 6:30 AM?! That was me waking up for yet another day in the lab, you son of a bicha! I am still in a very intense program here and I have big responsibility. The only reason I still haven’t gotten a job (or at least one that pays money) is because it’s hard to find a decent job that will accept my current hours and my near future hours when classes begin. I’m basically busy all day everyday and SOME evenings too, which makes it difficult. I hope that answers your question too, scam, but you aren’t any part of the bicha. I am responsible for learning all the in’s and out’s of the lab, which includes collaborating with people all over the world. I will be the one in charge of the lab soon. Nice talkin to ya.

Comment by DOMS 287 — August 10, 2007 @ 1:10 pm

Any action of the weekend?

Comment by jtuffy — August 11, 2007 @ 4:32 pm

Construction… WoW… Church… And maybe a baby, who knows.

Comment by Seth — August 12, 2007 @ 2:10 pm

So Seth, I have to wonder where you came up with the name for the new baby? Does it correlate in any way to the recent release of the Simpson’s Movie?

Comment by jtuffy — August 12, 2007 @ 5:04 pm

Oh I’ve got to know the baby’s name. Is it Bartholomew?

Comment by DOMS 287 — August 12, 2007 @ 6:02 pm

Hey Freaks. Long time no talk. Nice to see y’all keeping each other in check. Give the wives my love!!

Comment by Kressyda — August 13, 2007 @ 12:09 am

Somewhat Ironic don’t you think with Kressyda calling us freaks! LOL So how are the backwoods of Arkansas?

Looks, like Dom’s is getting warmer, but i still want to hear seth’s side.

Comment by jtuffy — August 13, 2007 @ 7:57 am

Ar -kansas is nice. always relaxing to get away to the folks’ place.

Dude, isn’t it maggie? i think that’s a great name. I thought about for my own kid even. Although, Homer or Apu would be pretty cool too.

Comment by The Scam — August 13, 2007 @ 8:31 am

No… Maggie was not inspired by the Simpson’s movie. Though, I certainly don’t mind that it is the name of a character. It’s funny… one of the other names Rachel liked was from another favorite TV show, Firefly (that’s the TV show, not the name… the name was Kaylee)

We have been talking about Maggie for quite some time, since before we even found out it was a girl. The funny thing is that she wouldn’t be named after the cartoon anyway… because Rachel doesn’t like the name Margaret. So, we are just going to name her Maggie. I thought we could name her Margo and call her Maggie… but that was a no go. Her full name will be Maggie Ella.

Since we are on the subject… I can’t believe we are having another kid. I still feel bad for screwing one up and now we are gonna have two! Crazy! Do you guys ever feel like there is no way you should have been put in charge of taking care of another human being? lol (Doms… thank heavens you are exempt from this question!)

Comment by Seth — August 13, 2007 @ 8:36 am

Apu Nahasapeemapetilon Ming… has a nice ring to it.

Comment by Seth — August 13, 2007 @ 8:40 am

Cameron you have to name your first born daughter after you. Cameron diaz ming.

Kresyda, you can’t use the blog until you guys get internet at home. Even trailor parks these days provide wireless internet to their tenants. You guys arn’t even sophisticated enough to live in a trailor park. LOL

Also, I had a funny dream last night. Cameron had been away, could have been on a mission but it wasn’t that for sure. You had just arrived home. You, me, Jon, and your dad were sitting chatting. You start telling a story about a girl you were sitting next to on the plane. You were telling us about your conversations on the plane, your dad was listening intently, then you busted out that she reached over and grabbed your package and held on to it while you continued talking. Jon and I obviously started laughing, And your dad didn’t say a word and stormed outa there. All of a sudden it got real akward and you followed your dad out to go explain or something. Then me and jon just hung out laughing at the situation. And that was pretty much the end of the dream. Pretty wierd.

anyways.

later

Comment by Jimmy Hostility — August 14, 2007 @ 7:50 am