So... what are your opinions about this financial crisis? After the stock market meltdown yesterday, Greenspan said this is the worst crisis he has seen in his lifetime. Several other very well respected analysts have compared this to the stock market crash of 1929 with one significant difference, there is more money involved this time.
The real dafeler though is McCains apparent belief that things aren't that bad, or that the "fundamentals" of our economy are strong. I just don't get it... do you guys? Not trying to slam your guy... just wondering how you guys feel about this statement and if you really think he is the man to resolve the financial crisis we are in.
Now, I know the first impulse is to compare him to Obama... but I want to know what you think of McCain and his suggested policies, not what you dislike about his opponent. What is McCain actualy going to do and do you think it would really work? I'm really curios about this, so please let me know what you all think.
Also, here's something funny. If you feel like jumping out the window after you look at the stocks... just watch this and laugh instead! http://sendables.jibjab.com/sendables/1191/time_for_some_campaignin#/teaser/1191
Now for my take: The way I see it, you're just being stupid if you criticize McCain for saying that the economy has strong fundamentals. If you disagree, then go to Canada because this is the American way, and Obama can't change that. Fundamentals aren't policy that you can just change when president, and they aren't the problem. The same fundamentals created a strong economy. The economy, like everything else, fluctuates on a sinusoidal wave.
You have to admit, the economy is not bad, just parts of it are and the media wants you to think everyone is living in the gutter. I thought it was just ridiculous when Fox News was showing a live shot of passing cars when a brand new SUV went by. The two anchors went ballistic. If you didn't know better (and a good thing I do), you would think that is the only guy in America that has purchased an SUV since gas prices have gone up. They were just boggled. That shows you what we're dealing with here.
So this brings me to seth's quote of Greenspan. This sounds exactly like every other loser that isn't exactly being realistic. These kinds of statements sell, and they sell you if you're willing to say them, and it contributes to Bush's low approval rating. I love when the media proves a point by saying that 2/3 of the American people think this is a bad idea. That slays me! That's great proof since we all know that the majority of Americans out there know best, especially after all the media crap they see!
I'll let someone else chime in while I get back to work. I haven't even gotten to seth's questions...
Oh man, this is some good stuff. It is amazing but i'm going to have to second ..........Michaels opinion. The economic foundation of free trade and market resolution is the most fundamentally sound aspect of any world economy. It is the democratic policy of altering Adam Smith's invisible hand that brings disastorous results. The market corrects itself over time (if given the opportunity) Right now we are seeing a recession because of bad policies and really this is a result of our over-indulgence as Americans. It is just a cycle and we're paying for it. We spend more than we make.
I really don't know what the policies of McCains are but i know that Obama wants to tax the rich. This is the most ridiculous notion i've ever heard. Anyone that believes in this is economically stupid. All you would have to do is take a basic basic basic economics class to understand these principles. But it is understandable that the general public has bitter feeling towards the "haves" since they are vastly uneducated.
Since this is my bread and butter from college, i would love to show the actual numbers behind market effects or how ridiculous it is to raise taxes (especially on the rich).
Well I must say, it is nice to have some support around here.
The democrats blame Bush for the dollar losing value YET they want to tax the rich (the employers) and RAISE minimum wage! A double whammy on the ol' dollar! That kind of talk gets you elected by the uneducated, but it is horrible for the economy. The dems' policies are usually based on what SOUNDS best. If I'm uneducated, then sure, a higher minimum wage and higher taxes to my employer sounds good to me. They can pay me more, and while they're at it, they can pay the government more that pays me more! I can't lose! And I especially can't lose if I'm one of the many that don't want to work at all. Of course then this is best for me.
Wait... Doms, are you saying you want to work? I'm gonna have to take a break from you guys not answering my question to wrap my head around THAT! Crazy...
You guys think that we need to do nothing and the economy will resolve itself? I know that there are ups and downs, but wasn't this particular "dip" given increased sevarity by the deregulation that took place under the clinton administration and which continued under the current administration? The thing that you neglect to address is that even when we recover the entire cycle has changed. Plus there is the continued overall growth that has continued even through small recesions, if the system is truely a cycle... would that not suggest an eventual long term decline in America's economic strength? Just throwing out some ideas...
Also, once again... I don't want to debate McCain vs Obama, i can hardly turn around without hearing that useless drible repeated ad nauseam. I want to know about McCain. What are his plans? I always hear you talking about "the issues", well... I'm trying to make up my mind and I'm asking for your input. If you guys need to pretend I'm an uniformed economic retard to tell me what you think, by all means... but can you answer the question this time?
LOL, hey i said i didn't know about either of their issues or plans for the economy. I was just stated what i know about market condiditons. If someone pointed me to a site where i could read what their plans our, then i will.
That being said. I think the fundamentals are still the same. And yes, if that is what America needs to right the ship then i have no problem with a long-term decline of America's economic strength. Its the nature of the beast.
Oh, and from now on, I'll be more PC and less harsh with my language. It is hard to portray sarcasm through words. Maybe that's how we scarred off the other bloggers.
You don't have to be less harsh... I just thought it was funny how I asked a simple legitimate question about McCain and instead got ripped for not understanding economics. Kinda made me chuckle.
Also... I want to know if Doms knows who Greenspan is. His coments made it seem like he didn't. What's your oppinion of Greenspan Jon? I remember hearing in the 90s and early 00s that he had a plan for a flat tax... always wondered how that would work.
McCain said he was referencing the American workforce when he said the fundamentals of our economy are strong...but that the economic situation is a mess and Wall Street is greedy..etc..
Anyway, Jon, I pointed you to Barack's website the other day..it states the problems and his proposed resolutions.
Barack said he would repeal Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy. Why not ? They can afford it..the middle class cannot.
Ok, one, two, three... get me ! Let's hear from the educated !
i was excited to hear that the feds were not going to bail out AIG because it showed that they acutally had some balls (is that PC?) and some sense. i think it is absolutely ridiculous that the government would even consider shelling out cash to save a flailing private company. it goes against everything this country stands for. so, i was glad to hear that the government had finally taken a stand.
then i hear that they changed their mind. now we're all screwed. i have lost all faith in the government. man, it's time for a "change". i wonder if there's a presidential candidate out there that is advocating change.
look, i know this isn't the first time the feds have stepped in to save the day. i didn't agree with it then and i don't now. why can the government shell out 85 billion to save AIG but they can't figure out how to improve inner city schooling and research more effective alternative fuel sources.
these republicans claim to want to stay out the people's way but this is really just a form of socialism for a select few.
why don't they bail out small busineses the same way?
Don't companies like AIG have some form of insurance through the federal government to cover their loses and a portion of the loses of their investors? I mean if they go under is it still going to cost the government a ridiculous amount? If so, then why not keep it open to preserve jobs, investors futures and hopefuly add a little more stability to a shaky market. I'm really not to sure on this so let the educated speak up on how this actualy works.
I like the comment about socialism for a few. (xxccc v f - Maggy wanted to type)
So Scam... do you have the internet now or just hangin' at the Library?
i am at work. that's the only way i can get internet these days.
let's say AIG files for bankruptcy. basically there are 3 major types of bankruptcy 7, 11, 13. 7 is the big one that most people think of as bankruptcy - all your debts are dissovled and start over fresh and clean. but you can only do that if you're assets are less then a certain amount - like 1,330,000 or something like that. so most of the time only the average guy can use it.
the others are really just reorganizations. debts still have to be paid off but the creditors agree to a payment plan. chapter 11 is for reorganization of entities with large amounts of debt (over 1,330,000 - that number is adjusted periodically for inflation) - which usually is the major companies.
so, here's my beef. instead of bailing out the company and wasting my tax dollars. let AIG declare bankruptcy and reorganize their debts. the company stays running but everyone gets paid. my tax money can be spent on something better and everyone is happy.
Scam - yes it is time for a change in government. Who do you think runs the country, it isn't the president. It is congress. And we have a democratic congress with approval ratings in the single digits or teens, but no one ever wants to talk about that. It is Bush's plan or Bush economics. Who do you think is bailing out AIG and these mortgage companies, loading the tax payer with these responsibilities? It is a democratic congress, or democratic economics.
This is bad news for America, this is not the American way of doing business, this is socialism/communism where the government steps in and owns private assets. The market fixes it's self over time if allowed.
And if everyone gave 10% like us few Mormons do, then we probably wouldn't have many poor or these other problems. The church should step in and take over the government, they now how to run a tight ship. That is another major MAJOR reason i don't want to pay taxes, i already do my part. I know it is selfish, but somewhat true.
i totally agree that the president is pretty much a lame duck. congress really runs the show.
i completely agree that the market will correct itself. i am a 100% believer in capitalism. on its own, with very few tweaks, capitalism will truly benefit everyone.
when you start taking money and dolling it out to whomever you please it breaks down the system. cohesion and consistency, that's what we need.
Is that what you are going to say when the law of consecration hits... I already do my part. You have said you will give all you have... Since this government was inspired by God I see this government as an extension of that. If you don't like where your money is going, stop wasting energy complaining and put your energy into making sure the money goes to something you agree with. And since you brought up religion, how can you complain so much about your money going to help the less fortunate? Giving to those who have less than you is a comandment as well as not questioning their need. If that's done by the government... it seems like they must be doing something right because they are upholding one of our basic religious values. Anyway... rant over.
The big news of the day... The Fed gaurantees Money Market investments and Wall Street bans Short Selling financial stocks. Thoughts?
Dang! Seth threw down the gauntlet! Nice cornering jog there seth. Tuffy and scam now have few options beyond simply admitting they are not fulfilling or willing to fulfill God's plan. I'd hate to be those guys.
I'ld hate to be you Doms... on judgement day! Just Kidding... that last post got me all worked up. Good to see ya back, never did find out if you knew who Greenspan was.
Yeah I meant to clear that Greenspan matter up. Let's have a little straight talk: I misread your quote. I associated your two quotes as both being Greenspan's. It actually was the second quote that made me say what I said, even though it wasn't an extreme quote either. I guess it just reminded me of the losers in the media. So, seth... and Mr. Greenspan... I'm sorry.
Man, admitting I made a mistake and that I was wrong, and then apologizing for it sure shows the kind of politician I'd be (or wouldn't be, for that matter).
Oh man... that was pretty funny Doms. So, what the heck are you up too? Still planning on going to med school? And Scam... what is this job you are working, not waiting tables again I'm assuming. We blog all the time but I really have no idea what you guys are up to.
as for the law of consecration and our religion giving money to the poor - everyone works for it.
even now, if someone comes to the bishop and asks for help, they surely get it. but they have to do something in return, like fix someone's car or tape up the ripped hymn books.
maybe we don't question their need, but we don't just give out money blindly. that's what's wrong with the government giving out money and welfare. there is no accountability. same with companies. they screwed up big time and now they need help. the government throws money at them without asking how they plan to fix the problem.
as for my job: i working with conocophillips down in laredo, texas. i can see mexico from my office window. pretty crazy.
Wait... the church just gives money to people all the time. They try to make a plan to get the people back on their feet and contributing... but there are plenty of people that use the church the same way people use welfare.
In contrast... it's probably not as easy for people to get welfare as you think, and there are alot of welfare stipulations that require people to work and limit the time they can recieve aid. Plus... alot of people that recieve aid use it to improve their situation and become contributing members of society.
There are people that abuse both systems, but they both help alot of people in the right ways too.
The church will help people out for a very limited time. It doesn't go on for years, and progress must be shown.
As for the comment about the government being inspired by God. That was true, but the government we have to day is almost a 180 from that which was spoken of in the scriptures. So Gay marriage, and abortion must also be divinely inspired if backed by the government?
And no, i wouldn't say that when the law of consecration hits, because everyone will be doing it. If everyone gave 10% now, we'd be fine. Of course there will always be poor but there would be enough to help them out.
Yes, Romney would have be the absolute best choice for President. He is a working man vs. Politicians (see McLame and Osama). All i care about in polictics is my taxes. You can let people be gay or abortions or whatnot. You teach the people correct principles and hope they follow, but when it comes to the economy and money, that is forcing a type of financial slavery on people.
seth, dude, i completely and whole heartedly believe that welfare is a good thing and that it does help people better their situation. but even the government's welfare system is flawed.
the church at least has the right idea. most leaders just don't follow the rules like they should.
believe me, i know its hard to get welfare. believe me, i know welfare can save your life. that doesn't mean it's perfect.
as for what you and tuffy were saying, i also agree that the government was inspired. but the scriptures aslo warn that when the majority of the people begin to choose wickedness for government, bad stuff is on the way. (mosiah 29:27 i think).
so really, the only people that can really screw up the government is the people electing stupid people that will choose evil stuff instead of good stuff.
30 comments:
Seth's original post:
So... what are your opinions about this financial crisis? After the stock market meltdown yesterday, Greenspan said this is the worst crisis he has seen in his lifetime. Several other very well respected analysts have compared this to the stock market crash of 1929 with one significant difference, there is more money involved this time.
The real dafeler though is McCains apparent belief that things aren't that bad, or that the "fundamentals" of our economy are strong. I just don't get it... do you guys? Not trying to slam your guy... just wondering how you guys feel about this statement and if you really think he is the man to resolve the financial crisis we are in.
Now, I know the first impulse is to compare him to Obama... but I want to know what you think of McCain and his suggested policies, not what you dislike about his opponent. What is McCain actualy going to do and do you think it would really work? I'm really curios about this, so please let me know what you all think.
Also, here's something funny. If you feel like jumping out the window after you look at the stocks... just watch this and laugh instead!
http://sendables.jibjab.com/sendables/1191/time_for_some_campaignin#/teaser/1191
September 16, 2008 7:25 AM
Wow... new post worthy. Good job me!
Now for my take: The way I see it, you're just being stupid if you criticize McCain for saying that the economy has strong fundamentals. If you disagree, then go to Canada because this is the American way, and Obama can't change that. Fundamentals aren't policy that you can just change when president, and they aren't the problem. The same fundamentals created a strong economy. The economy, like everything else, fluctuates on a sinusoidal wave.
You have to admit, the economy is not bad, just parts of it are and the media wants you to think everyone is living in the gutter. I thought it was just ridiculous when Fox News was showing a live shot of passing cars when a brand new SUV went by. The two anchors went ballistic. If you didn't know better (and a good thing I do), you would think that is the only guy in America that has purchased an SUV since gas prices have gone up. They were just boggled. That shows you what we're dealing with here.
So this brings me to seth's quote of Greenspan. This sounds exactly like every other loser that isn't exactly being realistic. These kinds of statements sell, and they sell you if you're willing to say them, and it contributes to Bush's low approval rating. I love when the media proves a point by saying that 2/3 of the American people think this is a bad idea. That slays me! That's great proof since we all know that the majority of Americans out there know best, especially after all the media crap they see!
I'll let someone else chime in while I get back to work. I haven't even gotten to seth's questions...
Oh man, this is some good stuff. It is amazing but i'm going to have to second ..........Michaels opinion. The economic foundation of free trade and market resolution is the most fundamentally sound aspect of any world economy. It is the democratic policy of altering Adam Smith's invisible hand that brings disastorous results. The market corrects itself over time (if given the opportunity) Right now we are seeing a recession because of bad policies and really this is a result of our over-indulgence as Americans. It is just a cycle and we're paying for it. We spend more than we make.
I really don't know what the policies of McCains are but i know that Obama wants to tax the rich. This is the most ridiculous notion i've ever heard. Anyone that believes in this is economically stupid. All you would have to do is take a basic basic basic economics class to understand these principles. But it is understandable that the general public has bitter feeling towards the "haves" since they are vastly uneducated.
Since this is my bread and butter from college, i would love to show the actual numbers behind market effects or how ridiculous it is to raise taxes (especially on the rich).
Well I must say, it is nice to have some support around here.
The democrats blame Bush for the dollar losing value YET they want to tax the rich (the employers) and RAISE minimum wage! A double whammy on the ol' dollar! That kind of talk gets you elected by the uneducated, but it is horrible for the economy. The dems' policies are usually based on what SOUNDS best. If I'm uneducated, then sure, a higher minimum wage and higher taxes to my employer sounds good to me. They can pay me more, and while they're at it, they can pay the government more that pays me more! I can't lose! And I especially can't lose if I'm one of the many that don't want to work at all. Of course then this is best for me.
Wait... Doms, are you saying you want to work? I'm gonna have to take a break from you guys not answering my question to wrap my head around THAT! Crazy...
You guys think that we need to do nothing and the economy will resolve itself? I know that there are ups and downs, but wasn't this particular "dip" given increased sevarity by the deregulation that took place under the clinton administration and which continued under the current administration? The thing that you neglect to address is that even when we recover the entire cycle has changed. Plus there is the continued overall growth that has continued even through small recesions, if the system is truely a cycle... would that not suggest an eventual long term decline in America's economic strength? Just throwing out some ideas...
Also, once again... I don't want to debate McCain vs Obama, i can hardly turn around without hearing that useless drible repeated ad nauseam. I want to know about McCain. What are his plans? I always hear you talking about "the issues", well... I'm trying to make up my mind and I'm asking for your input. If you guys need to pretend I'm an uniformed economic retard to tell me what you think, by all means... but can you answer the question this time?
LOL, hey i said i didn't know about either of their issues or plans for the economy. I was just stated what i know about market condiditons. If someone pointed me to a site where i could read what their plans our, then i will.
That being said. I think the fundamentals are still the same. And yes, if that is what America needs to right the ship then i have no problem with a long-term decline of America's economic strength. Its the nature of the beast.
Oh, and from now on, I'll be more PC and less harsh with my language. It is hard to portray sarcasm through words. Maybe that's how we scarred off the other bloggers.
You don't have to be less harsh... I just thought it was funny how I asked a simple legitimate question about McCain and instead got ripped for not understanding economics. Kinda made me chuckle.
Also... I want to know if Doms knows who Greenspan is. His coments made it seem like he didn't. What's your oppinion of Greenspan Jon? I remember hearing in the 90s and early 00s that he had a plan for a flat tax... always wondered how that would work.
Oh... and lets not be PC. That would mean I couldn't say retarded anymore and it's one of my favorite words.
McCain said he was referencing the American workforce when he said the fundamentals of our economy are strong...but that the economic situation is a mess and Wall Street is greedy..etc..
Anyway, Jon, I pointed you to Barack's website the other day..it states the problems and his proposed resolutions.
Barack said he would repeal Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy. Why not ? They can afford it..the middle class cannot.
Ok, one, two, three... get me !
Let's hear from the educated !
Just because they can afford it doesn't mean it makes sense in terms of fairness and more importantly in terms of economic benefit.
alright, i'm in _
i was excited to hear that the feds were not going to bail out AIG because it showed that they acutally had some balls (is that PC?) and some sense. i think it is absolutely ridiculous that the government would even consider shelling out cash to save a flailing private company. it goes against everything this country stands for. so, i was glad to hear that the government had finally taken a stand.
then i hear that they changed their mind. now we're all screwed. i have lost all faith in the government. man, it's time for a "change". i wonder if there's a presidential candidate out there that is advocating change.
look, i know this isn't the first time the feds have stepped in to save the day. i didn't agree with it then and i don't now. why can the government shell out 85 billion to save AIG but they can't figure out how to improve inner city schooling and research more effective alternative fuel sources.
these republicans claim to want to stay out the people's way but this is really just a form of socialism for a select few.
why don't they bail out small busineses the same way?
Don't companies like AIG have some form of insurance through the federal government to cover their loses and a portion of the loses of their investors? I mean if they go under is it still going to cost the government a ridiculous amount? If so, then why not keep it open to preserve jobs, investors futures and hopefuly add a little more stability to a shaky market. I'm really not to sure on this so let the educated speak up on how this actualy works.
I like the comment about socialism for a few. (xxccc v f - Maggy wanted to type)
So Scam... do you have the internet now or just hangin' at the Library?
i am at work. that's the only way i can get internet these days.
let's say AIG files for bankruptcy. basically there are 3 major types of bankruptcy 7, 11, 13. 7 is the big one that most people think of as bankruptcy - all your debts are dissovled and start over fresh and clean. but you can only do that if you're assets are less then a certain amount - like 1,330,000 or something like that. so most of the time only the average guy can use it.
the others are really just reorganizations. debts still have to be paid off but the creditors agree to a payment plan. chapter 11 is for reorganization of entities with large amounts of debt (over 1,330,000 - that number is adjusted periodically for inflation) - which usually is the major companies.
so, here's my beef. instead of bailing out the company and wasting my tax dollars. let AIG declare bankruptcy and reorganize their debts. the company stays running but everyone gets paid. my tax money can be spent on something better and everyone is happy.
i freaking hate the fact that as soon as i post anything, everybody scatters.
what's the fastest way to clear a room? have cameron say something incredibly enlightening.
Enlighting? We are just floored that you are still alive! : )
Scam - yes it is time for a change in government. Who do you think runs the country, it isn't the president. It is congress. And we have a democratic congress with approval ratings in the single digits or teens, but no one ever wants to talk about that. It is Bush's plan or Bush economics. Who do you think is bailing out AIG and these mortgage companies, loading the tax payer with these responsibilities? It is a democratic congress, or democratic economics.
This is bad news for America, this is not the American way of doing business, this is socialism/communism where the government steps in and owns private assets. The market fixes it's self over time if allowed.
And if everyone gave 10% like us few Mormons do, then we probably wouldn't have many poor or these other problems. The church should step in and take over the government, they now how to run a tight ship. That is another major MAJOR reason i don't want to pay taxes, i already do my part. I know it is selfish, but somewhat true.
i totally agree that the president is pretty much a lame duck. congress really runs the show.
i completely agree that the market will correct itself. i am a 100% believer in capitalism. on its own, with very few tweaks, capitalism will truly benefit everyone.
when you start taking money and dolling it out to whomever you please it breaks down the system.
cohesion and consistency, that's what we need.
so, would romney be a better candidate now that we are in a financial crisis?
Is that what you are going to say when the law of consecration hits... I already do my part. You have said you will give all you have... Since this government was inspired by God I see this government as an extension of that. If you don't like where your money is going, stop wasting energy complaining and put your energy into making sure the money goes to something you agree with. And since you brought up religion, how can you complain so much about your money going to help the less fortunate? Giving to those who have less than you is a comandment as well as not questioning their need. If that's done by the government... it seems like they must be doing something right because they are upholding one of our basic religious values. Anyway... rant over.
The big news of the day... The Fed gaurantees Money Market investments and Wall Street bans Short Selling financial stocks. Thoughts?
Dang! Seth threw down the gauntlet! Nice cornering jog there seth. Tuffy and scam now have few options beyond simply admitting they are not fulfilling or willing to fulfill God's plan. I'd hate to be those guys.
I'ld hate to be you Doms... on judgement day! Just Kidding... that last post got me all worked up. Good to see ya back, never did find out if you knew who Greenspan was.
Yeah I meant to clear that Greenspan matter up. Let's have a little straight talk: I misread your quote. I associated your two quotes as both being Greenspan's. It actually was the second quote that made me say what I said, even though it wasn't an extreme quote either. I guess it just reminded me of the losers in the media. So, seth... and Mr. Greenspan... I'm sorry.
Man, admitting I made a mistake and that I was wrong, and then apologizing for it sure shows the kind of politician I'd be (or wouldn't be, for that matter).
Oh man... that was pretty funny Doms. So, what the heck are you up too? Still planning on going to med school? And Scam... what is this job you are working, not waiting tables again I'm assuming. We blog all the time but I really have no idea what you guys are up to.
as for the law of consecration and our religion giving money to the poor - everyone works for it.
even now, if someone comes to the bishop and asks for help, they surely get it. but they have to do something in return, like fix someone's car or tape up the ripped hymn books.
maybe we don't question their need, but we don't just give out money blindly. that's what's wrong with the government giving out money and welfare. there is no accountability. same with companies. they screwed up big time and now they need help. the government throws money at them without asking how they plan to fix the problem.
as for my job: i working with conocophillips down in laredo, texas. i can see mexico from my office window. pretty crazy.
Wait... the church just gives money to people all the time. They try to make a plan to get the people back on their feet and contributing... but there are plenty of people that use the church the same way people use welfare.
In contrast... it's probably not as easy for people to get welfare as you think, and there are alot of welfare stipulations that require people to work and limit the time they can recieve aid. Plus... alot of people that recieve aid use it to improve their situation and become contributing members of society.
There are people that abuse both systems, but they both help alot of people in the right ways too.
The church will help people out for a very limited time. It doesn't go on for years, and progress must be shown.
As for the comment about the government being inspired by God. That was true, but the government we have to day is almost a 180 from that which was spoken of in the scriptures. So Gay marriage, and abortion must also be divinely inspired if backed by the government?
And no, i wouldn't say that when the law of consecration hits, because everyone will be doing it. If everyone gave 10% now, we'd be fine. Of course there will always be poor but there would be enough to help them out.
Yes, Romney would have be the absolute best choice for President. He is a working man vs. Politicians (see McLame and Osama). All i care about in polictics is my taxes. You can let people be gay or abortions or whatnot. You teach the people correct principles and hope they follow, but when it comes to the economy and money, that is forcing a type of financial slavery on people.
seth, dude, i completely and whole heartedly believe that welfare is a good thing and that it does help people better their situation. but even the government's welfare system is flawed.
the church at least has the right idea. most leaders just don't follow the rules like they should.
believe me, i know its hard to get welfare. believe me, i know welfare can save your life. that doesn't mean it's perfect.
as for what you and tuffy were saying, i also agree that the government was inspired. but the scriptures aslo warn that when the majority of the people begin to choose wickedness for government, bad stuff is on the way. (mosiah 29:27 i think).
so really, the only people that can really screw up the government is the people electing stupid people that will choose evil stuff instead of good stuff.
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